no subject

[peteryoung]

The sad story of when simply wearing a uniform becomes enough for you to be able to overcome your human instincts. I'm sure those officers will be haunted by this event for the rest of their lives; I wonder if they had not been in uniform, I expect they would have acted differently and then be lauded for their off-duty heroism; alternatively, if they had had a go while in uniform they would have received similar praise despite crossing the boundaries of what they had been trained to deal with. If it were me in their situation, being confronted with a drowning child, I personally couldn't allow myself to hide behind that uniform, which evidently I would be entitled to do, though I can't actually criticize them for doing so. The two answers to this one seem at odds; at a gut level, who wouldn't want to call out two fit and able people on this for cowardice? Thinking about it further, were they right not to involve themselves in something they couldn't reasonably expect to succeed in without a disregard for their own survival? Which is right? What would you do?

For twenty-one years I've been trained to do all sorts of emergency stuff, from CPR to fighting fires to the nightmare of evacuating a ditched aircraft, but this makes me look (once again) at what I might be prepared to do either in or out of uniform. At the very shallow end, all crew, including myself, resent being asked to lift heavy bags into overhead lockers, something we get constant criticism for, but when you have hundreds of colleagues on long-term sickness for back injuries for doing precisely this, you absolutely don't want to join them. But... when you're asked by a little old lady with a walking stick it's a bit different to being asked by a 6'5" rugby player, and you happily do it. People still silently leave their bags in the aircraft aisle expecting me to do their heavy lifting for them without even a polite request while they hide behind a newspaper (sometimes I can barely conceal my lack of patience with such arrogance); if they actually summon the courtesy to ask me to do it my standard reply is to say "If it's too heavy for you to lift, it's also probably too heavy for me to lift", which I hope will open their eyes a little. If they choose to argue the toss I then politely but firmly request that they to do it themselves; I don't like quoting 'jobsworth' company rules at people over such trivialities. We are advised not to lift heavy bags other than our own, but this will never be policy because it detracts from the ethos of customer service. And yet if it was my own mother or father asking me to do it, I would happily do so, no questions asked, in or out of uniform, with no thoughts about possible back injuries.

At the very deep end, there's the scenario of evacuating a burning aircraft. We're advised not be dead heroes; I would of course get as many people out as I could, but if I'm being overcome by thick smoke I hope I would fall out of that door onto a slide at the last possible moment. But as it's never happened to me I couldn't actually say with certainty that this is how it would play out. No one expects civilians to overcome the technicalities of evacuating a burning aircraft, so to draw a parallel with the officers' situation, a crew member couldn't be criticized for not saving someone's life in an evacuation scenario if to do so were to threaten his/her own life, even if it meant they had to be first out of the door to save their own life with not even a chance of saving anyone else.

I have no point or conclusion to make here, it's just a train of thought I expect I will be carrying around with me all day. Comments invited.

ETA 1 (21/9): more response from the police, which gives a clearer picture of what actually happened and rejects the criticisms of the officers.

ETA 2 (22/9): Blunkett wades in. Not the support one expects from the person who created your job.

Comments

[pigeonhed.livejournal.com]

I swim fairly well, but am not trained in lifesaving. I would have jumped in to help those children. If I couldn't swim I perhaps would have stood there feeling helpless.

In the burning aircraft scenario I would hope I would use basic physical abilities, say the strength to hold open a door, to lift an injured person etc or help if I could, but I'm not a trained firefighter or paramedic so I wouldn't attempt those roles. It maybe that you would have to be first out in order to provide safety for the evacuated passengers when they got out, make a clear space, inflate a life raft properly or whatever.

What I would always expect is that a witness would be compelled to appear and give evidence. That these PCSO's didn't is either the most cowardly act of their lives, or a cowardly instruction from their superiors.

[tamaranth.livejournal.com]

Not at all related to point of post, but to your comments on 'the ethos of customer service': I was not impressed with the flight assistant on a recent Air Southwest flight who initially refused to put my bag in the overhead locker.
"If you can't lift it yourself, you should have checked it as hold baggage."
"Oh, it's not heavy. I can lift it." *demonstrates* "It's just that, unfortunately, I can't reach the overhead locker."
"I'm afraid it's policy," she started: then the man in the aisle seat, over whose head we were discussing practicalities, very kindly stood up and stowed my bag for me.

More on-topic: I can't imagine standing by, knowing that a child was in difficulties. Even if they couldn't, for whatever reason, dive in (literally) and rescue the boy, was there nothing else they could do to help? Or did they do what they could, and is that effort being unreported because they didn't do as much as parents / bystanders / the Press would like?

[dyfferent.livejournal.com]

Are police or these new faux-police required to know how to swim & do other sorts of underwater gubbins?

In the states not long ago a woman was actually convicted for not pulling a kid out of a fast-moving floodwater stream even though she could reasonably expect to drown herself, as she was a non-swimmer. She was dating the father, but not actively in control of the child. The father was; he left the child in a dangerous position near the water despite the girlfriend repeatedly asking him not to.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05278/582741.stm

The parents are never to blame in such situations. It's always whatever adults were nearby instead. :/

[vicarage.livejournal.com]

What right does the mother have to 'demand' others put themselves in danger for her children? So often in drowning cases its the rescuer who does, and in this case the older child died rescuing the younger. Yet in her grief she loads the guilt on a third party and asks for them to loose their jobs as a penalty for not being heroes.

You only go to help people if you think you have the appropriate skills. But even then society cannot expect you to be a hero, and penalise you if you are not.

[del-c.livejournal.com]

I would also like to know if the impression I got from the Radio 4 reportage this morning is accurate, that there were people in civvies standing around themselves, who were later happy to stick the knife in.

The Police Federation spokesman is right that this (like recent civil-rights-trampling legislation) is partly a consequence of government attempts to make policing cheaper, but all of us post-Thatcher Britons who whine about having to pay our taxes can share some blame for that phenomenon.

[alexmc.livejournal.com]

Can you ask for a tip? Say a fiver for putting someone's bags in overhead lockers?

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

It irritates me when passengers carry into the plane big, heavy bag. If it's heavy and big, have it checked in! I've been asked a few times to put my bag somewhere else because the person sitting beside me took up all the space in the overhead locker. I suppose it's only a matter of time before airlines start weighing people's carry on bags and putting an end to that.

[daveon.livejournal.com]

COmmunity Support Officers, so faux police.

[daveon.livejournal.com]

I've mixed feelings about this. I can swim well and I have been trained in life saving and one of the things you're trained in life saving is to avoid getting into water unless you can damn well avoid it.

In principle I'd like to think I'd jump in. But you have to judge the situation. In a pond, few risks, you follow the rules - reach, throw then jump in if they fail.

In a situation where somewhere is washed into the sea, then you have to just let them go. You will almost certainly die trying to rescue them. It's a nasty thought but it's also the probably outcome.

Then you have to know how to get people out, how to subdue somebody panicking in the water etc...

The final problem, which my mother had to deal with in a swimming lesson once in the 70s is that you might do all the right things, get them out and get straight into CPR and there's nothing you can do if they swallowed cold water in the wrong way.

I hope to never be in that sort of situation.

[andrewducker]

I can understand their actions, to be honest. They've clearly been trained that in situation X, you do Y. And in this case they were clearly told that the correct thing to do is to call for backup. It's very hard to override your training - some people can, but a lot of people will dither, at least for a while.

[drplokta]

Before they can do that, the airlines have to say "Sod the Warsaw convention, we'll cover loss or damage to your hold luggage for up to £10,000 per bag while it's in our care."

[dyfferent.livejournal.com]

In any case, I suspect there is a strong possibility they cannot swim, certainly that it is not a job requirement. I never learned myself and I don't automatically assume everyone can.

[annafdd.livejournal.com]

Good gracious God, I am a puny woman of 5 feet and I have NEVER expected anybody to put my bags in the overhead compartment for me. Strappy men offer to do it for me and I thank them, but if it's too heavy to lift, it's too heavy for me to carry, period.

[daveon.livejournal.com]

Even trained life savers are warned against entering water of unknown depth and conditions unless you really have to. It's a fast way to get yourself killed, as, sadly, happened in this situation. Getting into water to help somebody is one thing, but unless you really know how to get them out and support then and deal with a floating body, you've a serious problem on your hands.

I'd go into a lake or pond, I have to admit I'd not get into the sea or a fast moving river, at least not without a safety line and means of recovery because I know damn well I'd not be able to get myself out again let alone do that and lift somebody else out.

[fjm.livejournal.com]

You might want to update this entry. My reaction this morning was the same as yours, but the latest news item makes it clear that the child was no where to be seen. This was not a question of rescuing a drowning child. It would have been a case of wading in to find a dead body.

The first autopsy report has already made it clear that the child *was* already dead when they arrived. The only people who might possibly have saved the boy was the same civilians who got the girl out of the water.

[dan-golem.livejournal.com]

They couldn't see the child. It would have been stupid to get in the water, even if they could swim. They would have have been risking their own lives and the lives of others to no purpose.

I am particularly annoyed that Keith Vaz has waded in on the side of the grieving parents. He thinks in this case rules should have been broken. So he is criticising public servants for acting in the interest of the greatest public good. Keith Vaz sits on the Home Affairs Select Committee. If he wants cost-effective policing (rather than a few extra votes) he should wade right out again, because this will only deter people from becoming CPSOs!

[peteyoung.livejournal.com]

Thanks, ETA added.

[jamesb.livejournal.com]

A sad situation, which made me think of something I know well from home, a monument.

'At the junction of Hawkins Street and Burgh Quay a memorial was unveiled on 3rd August 1906 to Patrick Sheahan, of the Dublin Metropolitan Police, who lost his life on 6th May 1905 in an heroic attempt to rescue the foreman and two workmen from the main sewer of the new Main Drainage Works in which they had been overcome by sewer gas. The monument, in Celtic Romanesque, is 20 feet in height, of Ballinasloe limestone, relieved by pillars of Galway and Donegal granite, and by an ingenious development of the Cross and Crown in its design conveys the idea of sacrifice and triumph.'

Its hard to know what really happened, not being there, but I do know that we recognise acts of bravery, and they are sometimes two few these days.

I just dont think I would give up the fight so easily.

J

[jamesb.livejournal.com]

bags bags bags.

We get heavy lifting training. Company policy is along the lines that we may 'elect' to lift a bag at our own discretion, but should be clear that our own health is priority and that this is not part of our role. I have yet to encounter any manager at any level endorsing or encouraging such manual labour which might result in an injury. its very clear.

Customers must put their luggage in a luggage place, as otherwise its blocking an emergency exit route. I find a mix of manners, smiling, authoritative no nonsense yet pleasant about it approach works very well.

Of course, being a big lummock, I do find myself lugging the odd bag, but thats totally my own choice and normally because some one usually a lady or family, needs genuine help.

I find it had to draw any comparisons between two policemen by a pond and
a plane burning, really.


J

[hnpcc]

Didn't they used to have size restrictions on what you could take on as carry-on luggage? I was stunned at the size of some of the bags on a recent flight from Singapore to Melbourne. Even more so when people started putting them in overhead lockers away from where they were sitting (probably although not certainly in case they came open in flight?)

[hnpcc]

That is a very strange case. I don't think she should have been convicted for failing to jump in and attempt to rescue him, but then on the other hand I think she probably should have held him back from the water to start with. How hard would it have been for her to hold his hand while they were walking?

I do agree that the father should have shared some responsibility though - you can't just assume the chick you brought with you is going to look after your child (which appears to have been the case).

[bibliofile.livejournal.com]

Do two people ever lift bags together?

And of those people who expect you to lift up their bags are happy enough to lift them down themselves, in the hurry to get off the plane?

[jamesb.livejournal.com]

er, its unusual, as either some one doesn't or does.
Two people would mean a very heavy bad.
Baggage handlers may have it different though.

J